GCCDIV: Lunate's GCC Shariah Dividend ETF Yielding 6%+

00:00 — Moderator

Welcome to today’s webinar. We’ll be discussing the GCC ETF market, recent developments, and the outlook for the industry.

02:15 — Speaker Name

Thank you for having me. The regional ETF market has developed significantly over the past several years...

Host: Anthony Sassine, CEO of Nukoud and CEO of Oceane Invest Guest: Sherif Salem, Lunate (formerly Chimera Capital)

Anthony Sassine: Good afternoon everyone, and welcome to another Insights from Nukoud webinar. My name is Anthony Sassine. I'm the CEO of Nukoud and also CEO of Oceane Invest, an ETF market maker based out of Abu Dhabi. Thank you all for joining us today. Whether you're an investor, an asset manager, a financial adviser, a retail investor, or simply interested in the evolution of ETFs in our region, we're delighted to have you with us.

Today's session is particularly exciting because we're joined by Sherif Salem, one of the pioneers of the ETF industry in the GCC. Over the years, Sherif has played an important role in shaping the region's ETF landscape, working across product development, index innovation, and market growth. His experience gives us a unique perspective on where the industry has come from, where it stands today, and where it's headed.

During our discussion, we'll explore Sherif's journey in the ETF industry, the evolution of the industry across the GCC — especially in the UAE — the opportunities and challenges that lie ahead, and what it will take for the region to build a more vibrant ETF ecosystem comparable to the world's leading markets. We're also going to take a closer look at the region's newest ETF launch, the Lunate Chimera Solactive GCC Sharia Dividend ETF: the thinking behind the fund, how the index was constructed, and why dividend investing continues to resonate with investors across the GCC.

By way of background, at Nukoud our mission is to educate investors and support the development of the ETF ecosystem across the GCC by bringing together industry leaders and sharing practical insights. We couldn't think of a better guest to help us continue that mission today. Sherif, thank you for joining us — it's a pleasure to have you with us.

Sherif Salem: Thank you for having me. It's equally a pleasure to be here.

Anthony: When I first started coming to the region in 2021, I was in New York with a different asset manager, and you were literally one of my first two or three meetings. We were talking about ETFs in the region, and one of the banks helping us said we had to speak with Sherif Salem, CIO at Chimera back in the days. You had four or five ETFs then, I think?

Sherif: Four, yeah.

Anthony: Four. It's amazing, the growth trajectory you've taken since then. Today you have more than 20 ETFs across the GCC — UAE, thematic, and now the new Sharia-compliant fund, which is actually the first GCC equity fund in the world. So tell me, what got you into the industry?

Sherif: Before I answer that, I just want to clarify something. It's of course an honor to be considered part of the pioneering group that brought ETFs to the market, but the real pioneer is my direct boss, Seif — he was the first to bring ETFs to the market, and I've only been handed the baton.

But yes — when I started my career many years ago, ETFs weren't the thing. It was mutual funds, discretionary portfolios. Even globally, ETFs hadn't caught on yet; that only started in the late '90s and early 2000s, and here it took a lot more time. It's only when I learned more about ETFs — the uses they provide, and how much better than a mutual fund they are for an investor, I dare say — that I was converted. I was never an investor in ETFs myself; today, all my savings plans are in ETFs, because they are really the most cost-effective way to put money to work in the stock market, whether in equities or fixed income. The journey itself really started when I joined Chimera in December 2019 — that's when the real work in ETFs began.

Anthony: And where were you before that? How did you start?

Sherif: I started my career at EFG Hermes in Cairo. I moved to the UAE in 2003 — at the time, the stock market itself had only been around for about three years, so asset management was still something very rare. I did manage to find someone with a fund, so I joined National Bank of Abu Dhabi and stayed with them a number of years. Then I moved to Invest AD at one point, which gave me the opportunity to launch frontier markets funds — we launched an Iraq fund, a Libya fund, which was quite interesting, and an Africa fund. And then, in 2019, Chimera. So my whole career has been in asset management — active asset management — and it's only when I came to Chimera and the ETFs that I was converted to the passive world.

Anthony: The passive world — that's what we used to call it. I was in mutual funds back in the 2000s and 2010s, and I always prided myself on never doing passive ETFs, because back then it was the Vanguards and the BlackRocks — amazing products, obviously, trillion-dollar products — but it was more S&P 500, the anti-active-management thing. Today it's a whole different story. Now you can do whatever you want in ETFs, and that's why we've seen the growth. Every month we hear of a new way to build an ETF: we went from passive to sector to bonds, to thematic, options-based, Sharia — and now they were packaging SpaceX before it even launched.

Sherif: [laughs] Yeah.

Anthony: So tell us a little bit about the journey from Chimera into Lunate, especially on the ETF side. How did it start?

Sherif: It was really about seeing a gap in the market. We realized — and Seif realized — the beauty of ETFs and the fact that they were not available here, at the same time as there was a lot of loss of interest in mutual funds. People were more interested in trading the stock market; they wanted the comfort of being able to buy and sell whenever they wanted. So there was a gap in the market with regards to ETFs, just as they were taking off everywhere else around the world.

The strategy has been to bring ETFs to the UAE and the region. At the time we started, there were somewhere in the range of six to seven ETFs listed across Saudi Arabia and Qatar, and one in Egypt, but there was a lack of diversity in the types of ETFs. So our strategy has been to build out ETFs with the end goal of providing investors the ability to use them to create a portfolio.

Having been first to market, we also needed to educate, and we felt the best way to educate was with simple, long-only equity ETFs. We started with the UAE, so people could associate with companies they were familiar with — we had to spend a lot of time explaining what an ETF is, how it works, why it's beneficial. Then we slowly branched out, bringing access to regional markets — Saudi, Kuwait — then global markets people were interested in, like the US, then emerging markets such as China and India. Once we felt we had a good number of equity ETF offerings, we added fixed income — we came out with three fixed income funds — and then more recently the thematic ETFs.

Now the focus has also been on the Sharia angle, because as you may know, investors here are more inclined toward Sharia investing, and it's something that's actually missing globally from the market. So one of our focuses has been to concentrate on bringing Sharia-compliant ETFs, and we continue to build.

Anthony: You have a great lineup now — like you said, all the building blocks you need to build a long-term portfolio.

Sherif: Exactly. And being first to market also gives you the added responsibility to create the ecosystem, because ETFs are different from mutual funds. A mutual fund, you launch it, you sell it, it's over. Whereas with ETFs, you're providing the tools and then you sort of step out — as a fund manager you manage it, but the buying and selling actually happens away from you. So you need to educate the authorized participants, the investors, and the market makers on how to make use of these ETFs. That was an added scope to our strategy: building that ecosystem.

Anthony: A hundred percent. That's why we created Nukoud — to help you out a little bit here. [laughs] We definitely need education here, and more focus on ETFs, especially GCC ETFs. We're having new launches every month — we're seeing very cool stuff launch on the Abu Dhabi Securities Exchange, like quantum, luxury ETFs, the cross-listings, AI, and now the GCC equity ETF.

Sherif: Yeah, and that's what we hope to bring: added variety, to enable investors to build their own building blocks — to use ETFs as their own building blocks — because each investor will have a different preference and a different risk tolerance. We're hoping to create a suite of ETFs that will suit multiple investors.

Anthony: So let's talk about your recent launch, the GCC dividend equity ETF. It's the first GCC equity ETF in the world — I was surprised to see there are no others. And what was also very interesting is the 6.2% expected dividend yield, which is very decent — it's higher than emerging market dividend yields, and with GCC economies like Qatar, Saudi, and the UAE, these are solid economies, technically backed by sovereign wealth. It also competes with EM bonds at around 6%. So tell us about this fund. I know people on your team were very excited to launch it — Peter, Catherine, and the rest have been working on it for a long time, and I'm glad it was able to launch recently.

Sherif: The two things you mentioned are exactly the reason it took so long to launch. First, in terms of building the product, we had to ensure a yield that was good enough that capital markets felt it would sell. So there was a lot of back and forth between capital markets and our team on the yield, and Peter, as you mentioned, did a lot of hard work with the index provider to come up with the parameters for an index that would deliver that yield — and that's how we came to the 6.2%.

The other part is the background work of setting up and operating in three different markets that tend to have some things in common, but not everything. You have to manage how to deal with each of them individually so you can deliver the product investors expect of the ETF — settlement-wise, operationally, making sure that when investors go through the primary market, nothing drops, nothing fails. Dealing with three different markets, different currencies — all three pegged to the dollar, but you still have to convert — different market timings. It's a lot on the operational side.

And as I said, it took a while to come up with that 6.2%, but the fact that we've done the GCC allowed us to look across all markets and find the highest-paying dividends without restricting ourselves. Interestingly, our UAE fund, for example — which is not per se dividend-focused — is paying four to four and a half percent. So if it had been UAE-only, we probably couldn't have done any better than an ETF we already have. And the added layer, of course, is that it's Sharia-compliant, which we feel makes the investment more attractive.

Anthony: You made a switch here — an index switch. Traditionally you were more S&P; I think your first 10–15 funds were S&P, and now you're going with Solactive. And a Sharia screen is not an easy thing to do — it can cost, if you're not doing it with a big index provider. Tell us how that happened.

Sherif: Most of our ETFs at the beginning were S&P, but it's not that we're in any way restricted to that index provider. It just happened that we got into a relationship with S&P and continued to use their indices. However, when we launched the ADX 15, which tracks the top 15 ADX stocks, we used FTSE, because ADX is tied up with FTSE — so that's a FTSE index. As we progress and diversify the types of ETFs we're launching, we continue to gauge different index providers and try to find the most cost-effective solution that gives us the best result for the ETF we're trying to deliver. Solactive — this is the first time we've used them on one of our local ETFs, but we've used Solactive on one of our thematics. So we continue to be agnostic to the index provider and really pick them on their ability to deliver the type of index we want.

Anthony: So if you had to describe the GCC fund briefly — what is it, what's the composition, and how should investors use it?

Sherif: To put it simply: it's one ETF, one trade, giving exposure to 20 of the highest dividend-paying, Sharia-compliant stocks in the GCC. As I mentioned, an ETF is not necessarily a standalone investment — what this does within a building-block portfolio of ETFs is provide you with the type of income you would use to complement a more growth-oriented allocation. The stocks you're investing in to get that high dividend are mostly well-established companies, in a mature or close-to-mature stage of growth — certainly more mature and more reliable in terms of the dividends they pay compared to something like the thematics. And unlike our fixed income offerings, where you're getting yields of about four and a half percent — which could also satisfy the income portion of a portfolio — this has the added benefit of possible capital appreciation as well.

Anthony: The ETF is roughly one-third to 40% UAE, with the rest split between Saudi and Qatar.

Sherif: Yes — but it is open to the whole GCC, and this will keep evolving. Our indices rebalance on a quarterly, semi-annual, or annual basis; this one is an annual rebalance. The reason is that you have companies in there distributing quarterly, semi-annually, and annually, so you don't want to take out a company that's only paid half of its dividend, and so forth. But yes, for now that's the country allocation.

Anthony: So basically you have a strict screen to make sure the dividend is there and the companies are actually paying.

Sherif: Yes. And sorry — I just remembered you asked another question about the Sharia part of it. With all of the Sharia indices we manage, there are Sharia boards for each of the index providers — S&P has one, Solactive has one (or has subcontracted with one). Over and above that, the fund itself uses a locally based, well-renowned Sharia advisor that also reviews our investments within the ETFs.

Anthony: It's a very interesting product, and I really encourage listeners to go check it out. It has a fee of 50 basis points, benchmarked to the Solactive GCC Sharia Dividend index, split between the UAE, Qatar, and Saudi. From a sector perspective, materials, consumer discretionary, and real estate are your big allocations, and the fund is invested in very well-known companies that we use every day — big, established companies across the GCC, like Industries Qatar.

Sherif: Exactly.

Anthony: So this is another tool for investors to use. We were just talking about the building-block concept, and that takes me to a topic I like a lot and that should be at the forefront of investors' thinking: asset allocation. How to build a portfolio of ETFs where you can contribute monthly or quarterly and build yourself a nice nest egg. The key to that is diversification, ease of access, liquidity, and transparency — which ticks all the boxes ETFs offer. So what's your view on asset allocation, and how can investors use ETFs — especially the Lunate ETFs and the building blocks you've built over the years?

Sherif: It really goes back to an investor's risk appetite, their objective for the portfolio, and their time horizon. Ordinarily — and it's common practice — if you're younger, your ability to withstand market volatility is higher, because you have many more years to make up for any losses. As you get older, you probably want something a bit more secure, a bit more income-generating. But it really comes back to the investor and what the purpose of the investment is.

What we've provided are, first, the core equity ETFs that give direct market access — the US, the UAE, Japan, Germany. Then you have the thematics, which add more in terms of volatility — risk and return are higher. You're potentially going to make a lot more on something like quantum or AI data power, which are still in their infancy, but there's going to be a lot of volatility; stocks within those can go up and down 20–30%. And then you have the fixed income and the GCC high dividend fund, where you can satisfy the income-generating portion of the portfolio.

So it's really about knowing what you want. The beauty of ETFs is that whereas before you'd say, "I like the US, but I don't know which stocks to invest in," now the ETF gives you the top 30 growth stocks; Japan gives you the top 30 stocks in that market. And for a long-term investor, you don't want to be looking at short-term gains and losses — over a 10-year horizon it's been historically proven that stock markets provide a positive return. The ETFs are the building blocks, but how you build is up to your risk and return profile. I encourage people to look into it. I do it personally, by putting aside money on a monthly basis — it gets taken out of my bank account and goes in — and it's definitely better than sitting in cash.

Anthony: And that's going to be helpful to pension funds as well. We're seeing a lot of pension schemes develop across the UAE — you at Lunate are building end-of-service benefits products, other banks as well — and ETFs are going to be central to how they build.

Sherif: Exactly. Within something like the end-of-service benefits schemes, the government has pushed asset managers here to provide investment products for employees and employers. The best way to build those — as you well know, and as the likes of Fidelity and Vanguard have shown — is portfolios with a certain risk appetite: conservative, low risk, high-growth/high-risk. And the most cost-effective way to build those funds is through ETFs, because with five ETFs you can get exposure to thousands of stocks within that fund, versus having to transact in 200 individual stocks. From a cost perspective, for the end client, the employer, and the employee, it's much more cost-effective, and much easier and faster to build than a regular mutual fund.

Anthony: Absolutely. Let me go back a little — we have some interesting audience questions about the product. One question from a listener, Ahmed, is about the Sharia board, which you've addressed — whether the fund uses the AAOIFI standard. His other question: do you purify the fund — do you apply purification, and at what percentage?

Sherif: Yes — the purification ratio. Purification is done. The Sharia advisor goes through the portfolios and, based on data from S&P, comes up with the purification ratios for each of the ETFs. We provide that purification ratio to investors — in fact, we're about to publish the ratio we just received from the Sharia advisor — and it's up to the investor to use that ratio to purify the income themselves.

Anthony: And that will be on your website?

Sherif: It will be on ADX — or ADX and DFM, wherever the fund is listed — and potentially on the website, but the easiest place to find it will be the ADX. We haven't published it yet; we should be publishing it in the next few days.

Anthony: Another question: as stock prices increase, the dividend yield naturally drops. Under your methodology, do you rank by dividend? How do you assign weights to the different companies?

Sherif: It's by dividend yield. With the index provider, we've looked at historical yields and expected yields going forward. And that's precisely why we wanted the annual rebalance and reweighting — we don't want to be in and out of stocks just because yields are coming down or going up based on price performance. Hopefully that's reflected in capital appreciation: the yield of the ETF may go down, but what that hopefully means is you've made money on the capital, not that companies have been paying less.

Anthony: Great. There's one more question here, which I get a lot, and I always like to remind people about ETF liquidity. The question: the person supports ETFs, but they're asking whether there's a liquidity issue, because when you look at the screen you see lower volumes or wider bid–ask spreads. Do we consider this a risk?

I'll take this one. As I mentioned at the beginning of the webinar, I'm also CEO of Oceane Invest, an ETF market maker created almost a year ago to help strengthen the ETF ecosystem. We now make markets in six of the Lunate ETFs, including the quantum ETF and AI Power, and we do the cross-listings as well — including KWEB and KRBN — plus luxury, US value, US growth, and so on. So liquidity is our thing.

The prices you see on the screen are prices posted by Oceane Invest and other market makers covering these ETFs, and the liquidity of the ETF itself really depends on the underlying. Whatever you see on the screen in terms of volume is not really related to the liquidity of the ETF. You can buy as much as you want at the spread the market maker is posting: as long as the underlying stocks of the ETF are liquid, you have no issues. You can buy 5,000, 50,000, 500,000, or even 5 million dirhams, and you still get your order filled at the spread you see on the screen. It's a misconception investors have — that low volume means no liquidity. That's not true, because there's always a market maker in the background, and the ETF is not going to be impacted as long as the underlying stocks are liquid.

Sherif: That's perfect, and I agree, it is a misconception. The beauty of ETFs — which a lot of people don't know — is that there are two ways to buy and sell. You have the secondary market, which is what you see on the screen — and a lot of people look at the screen and say "it's not liquid." And you have the primary market, where the APs are involved: they can actually buy from you and handle the buying and selling themselves, or if it's a huge quantity you want to buy and you see only a small amount being offered, the AP can be involved in creating those ETF units for you. You don't have to rely on the secondary market alone.

Anthony: Exactly. This is why ETFs were created this way, and why they've taken off and are being used everywhere — the ease of access, the structure of the primary and secondary markets. That's why we're now seeing ETFs at $22 trillion globally.

One thing to note — I don't know if a lot of people know this, but I have a question for you: who's the biggest issuer of Sharia-compliant funds in the world?

Sherif: In number of products, it's Lunate. We currently have 11 Sharia ETFs. We're by far the biggest in terms of number of ETFs, and by far the biggest in single-country Sharia-compliant ETFs — we have seven. And we're the only ones to have non-domestic Sharia ETFs, for Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and I believe India. What that means is, if you're in Turkey, there are listed Turkish Sharia ETFs, but you won't find them anywhere outside Turkey. We're the only ones providing those three outside their home markets.

One important thing I should also mention — I assume a lot of the people watching are UAE-based — is the benefit of having all these ETFs here in the UAE: you buy them in dirhams. You could be buying the US, Germany, Pakistan, as well as the GCC — you would otherwise have had to deal with six different currencies. You don't have to do that. You buy them here in AED and you have access to those markets immediately. Some people ask, "Why are you listing them here when I can buy them abroad?" Well, you'd have to transfer those dollars or whatever currency it is. That's the added benefit of having these ETFs here, on-market, trading within your day — versus having to stay up late to trade the US market or get up early to trade Japan.

Anthony: I have very strong views on this — we actually built two companies based on it. It just doesn't make sense that the GCC, one of the biggest pools of capital in the world, with a vibrant middle class and affluent professional investors, only has 43 ETFs — and you've done an amazing job doing more than half of them.

And there's more than just currency conversion, by the way. People think currency conversion is free — there's no explicit cost, but the real cost is massive; just look at your bank's FX spread. In addition, there are taxes involved: if you buy an income fund in the US or Europe, you're paying 30% or 15% withholding on the dividend. Here, you're paying zero. If you buy an EM fund with a 6% dividend yield in the US or Europe, that's minus 30% — up to half of that 6% gone every year. Here you get the full amount.

There's also estate tax, which a lot of people don't know about: in the US, if you're investing there and, God forbid, something happens to you, there's a 40% estate tax if you hold more than $60,000. In addition to everything else — you'd have to stay up until 6 p.m. to trade. Here you can just trade it in your local time zone. So this is definitely a big area of growth, in my opinion.

Going back to Sharia compliance — for me this is a big growth area too. We recently published on Nukoud a deep dive covering Sharia-compliant ETFs globally, quite extensively — we've published four or five different reports on Sharia funds, one of them the full comprehensive global universe. I think there are between 80 and 82 funds; you have 11 of them. And there's only about $64 billion in assets, versus $23 trillion for the whole ETF universe. There's a huge gap, and I think a big opportunity. Where do you see the next opportunities in Sharia — whatever you can disclose? You've done dividend, you've done country. Are you thinking about thematics or other asset classes in Sharia?

Sherif: Look, we're just scratching the surface — not just us, but ETFs here in the region generally. You only have to look at how ETFs have evolved globally: you're getting more thematics, factor-based, sector — all those types of ETFs coming to market. The beauty of ETFs is that once you've built one and laid the foundation, it's very easy to bolt on more. What takes time is maybe setting up operationally, and coming up with the idea — but once you've done it, it's quick to market.

So I think there are still a lot of opportunities out there, a lot of ideas we have. We probably don't have the number of hours or people needed to bring all of them to life, but they'll come eventually. Five years — maybe going on six now — and 25 ETFs, with the year not over yet. It's been a lot of hard work, but it's starting to pay off a little. We're yet to see that J-curve, but hopefully soon.

Anthony: So what do you think it's going to take to see that J-curve? We're seeing good adoption in the retail space, but we're not seeing the institutional side join yet. What will it take, from an ETF industry perspective, to get the institutional folks in?

Sherif: We haven't talked about institutional much, but they are key. We've looked at a number of emerging markets and how ETFs took off there — Korea, India, several others — and a lot of it is regulatory. A lot of it has been mandating institutions and sovereigns to invest within the country. South Africa, I think, was another one, where they started with small amounts — 2% had to be invested domestically. The fact is, a lot of these big institutions do invest abroad. But as we bring more of the types of products that are available abroad here, locally, with the same structure, the same regulatory oversight, and the same transparency, there shouldn't be a reason for institutions not to look at them.

So, to answer the question directly: it's going to be regulatory. Though some institutions are starting to understand ETFs — we've seen a pickup. We were talking offline: when we started, our ETFs traded a handful of times over six months. Today, on a monthly basis, we're trading over 100 million dirhams across the 25 ETFs. As recently as last July — July 2025 — we were trading less than 20 million across, at the time, probably 19 ETFs. There's definitely been a pickup, on the back of building and widening the ecosystem — Nukoud, Oceane, our tie-up with Wio Bank, where people are able to put in monthly investments. Things are picking up — slowly, but surely.

Anthony: Right — we need to keep launching these funds. We have a couple more questions. Can you elaborate more on the APs and the primary market for ETFs?

Sherif: You're the expert — you take that one.

Anthony: Sure. The way ETFs are built, you have the primary market and the secondary market, which is what you see on the screen. The primary market works through authorized participants — that's what AP stands for. Lunate, I think you have — how many?

Sherif: Twelve APs.

Anthony: Twelve APs — that's a lot; that's great. An authorized participant is a large financial institution that has a special agreement with the issuer to create and redeem ETF shares. ETF shares are essentially baskets of stocks, and APs play a vital role in supplying the market with ETF units when needed, or taking units out when they're not — that's how supply expands and contracts. An AP can do a large block trade of shares, called a creation unit, directly with the fund issuer, using cash or the underlying securities, and these trades usually happen at NAV, or slightly above. So you can get a really good price when you're dealing with an AP. The other way is to buy on screen, where what you see is the bid–ask spread posted by a market maker — like Oceane — pricing these ETFs; that's your access through the secondary market. So you have two ways of transacting, and this structure also allows for arbitrage, which keeps the ETFs tight to the underlying basket and keeps liquidity flowing and price discovery ongoing continuously.

Now — when you started, your fees were at a higher level, and I see you're now cutting fees on some funds. Where do you think ETF fees should be here? Naturally they're going to be higher than in the US, because of all the hurdles you have to deal with across different markets, different currencies, and so on. What's your view on fees, and where are we heading?

Sherif: Exactly. For anyone who doesn't know, ETFs are a very low-margin business. Someone looking at our fees on some funds, where we have 1%, might be amazed at that. But it's not only the hurdles of setting these up — it's also a reflection of the costs of the service providers. In building these ETFs, we wanted to make sure they're world-class in terms of service providers: our custodian and administrator is BNY Mellon, one of the biggest in the world. With that come costs, and the costs these global players charge in the Middle East are not the same as in Europe or the US.

As we add more volume and more AUM — because it's low margin, you want higher AUMs to compensate — we'll look at reducing fees, and as you mentioned, we've already reduced some. Some of the products we've come out with are competitive globally: our fixed income products are all at 40 basis points, which is competitive on a global comparison; our thematics are at 49; and our UAE Sharia fund — we're one of only two, and we have the same fees that iShares charges. Part of it is also that some of these products are unique and take a lot to build. But as with anything — and as I've seen with mutual funds myself — with time, these fees do come down.

Anthony: Amazing — this was a really great conversation, Sherif. There's a lightning round I have to do; feel free to answer or not. How many ETFs do you think will launch in the UAE in the next year?

Sherif: I hope there are more of us launching ETFs. No idea on the number — we've launched anywhere between two and as many as six ETFs in a year. It really depends on regulatory and operational factors. We'll see. No prediction.

Anthony: Okay, fair enough. Thank you — I appreciate your presence here and this conversation. You really are one of the very early adopters of ETFs in the region, with Seif and the Lunate team, and we appreciate the collaboration and the continuous conversation with Nukoud and Oceane, and the work we try to do on a daily basis on the screen to provide good spreads for investors.

If you want more information about ETFs — and we write a lot about the Lunate funds as well — please visit nukoud.com; there are a lot of great articles and tools there. And for more information about the new GCC ETF, visit the ADX website or Lunate's website. Thank you all for joining us today, and we look forward to seeing you again on a new webinar in the near future. Sherif, thank you so much again.

Sherif: Thank you. It's been a pleasure. Thanks.

Transcript lightly edited for clarity: filler words, false starts, and repetitions removed; names, tickers, and index/provider references corrected.